Mission Accomplished

Now, this is what I call music…!

In case you can’t keep up, here’s the lyrics. Read along, then consult your Bible and read and pray and think!

Verse 1

Here’s a controversial subject that tends to divide
For years it’s had Christians lining up on both sides
By God’s grace, I’ll address this without pride
The question concerns those for whom Christ died
Was He trying to save everybody worldwide?
Was He trying to make the entire world His Bride?
Does man’s unbelief keep the Savior’s hands tied?
Biblically, each of these must be denied
It’s true, Jesus gave up His life for His Bride
But His Bride is the elect, to whom His death is applied
If on judgment day, you see that you can’t hide
And because of your sin, God’s wrath on you abides
And hell is the place you eternally reside
That means your wrath from God hasn’t been satisfied
But we believe His mission was accomplished when He died
But how the cross relates to those in hell?
Well, they be saying:

Lord knows He tried (8x)

Verse 2

Father, Son and Spirit: three and yet one
Working as a unit to get things done
Our salvation began in eternity past
God certainly has to bring all His purpose to pass
A triune, eternal bond no one could ever sever
When it comes to the church, peep how they work together
The Father foreknew first, the Son came to earth
To die- the Holy Spirit gives the new birth
The Father elects them, the Son pays their debt and protects them
The Spirit is the One who resurrects them
The Father chooses them, the Son gets bruised for them
The Spirit renews them and produces fruit in them
Everybody’s not elect, the Father decides
And it’s only the elect in whom the Spirit resides
The Father and the Spirit- completely unified
But when it comes to Christ and those in hell?
Well, they be saying:

Lord knows He tried (8x)

Verse 3

My third and final verse- here’s the situation
Just a couple more things for your consideration
If saving everybody was why Christ came in history
With so many in hell, we’d have to say He failed miserably
So many think He only came to make it possible
Let’s follow this solution to a conclusion that’s logical
What about those who were already in the grave?
The Old Testament wicked- condemned as depraved
Did He die for them? C’mon, behave
But worst of all, you’re saying the cross by itself doesn’t save
That we must do something to give the cross its power
That means, at the end of the day, the glory’s ours
That man-centered thinking is not recommended
The cross will save all for whom it was intended
Because for the elect, God’s wrath was satisfied
But still, when it comes to those in hell
Well, they be saying:

Lord knows He tried (8x)

Thank you, Shai Linne, whoever you are.

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45 responses

  1. Capt.,
    Help me here.
    “when it comes to those in hell well, they be saying, Lord know He tried.”
    What? The people in Hell will be saying – God tried to save me, but he failed!
    I have absolute confidence you believe that is not true (almost absolute confidence).

    Christian

    1. That’s artistic liscense. Or it’s the living Arminians merely claiming it. Whichever’s easier for you to get your imagination around.

  2. Capt.,
    WORDS mean things!! The Scripture uses no “artistic license.”

    Christian

    1. Wow. Is that the argument you’re going to use to deny limited atonement? That argument is utterly absurd. Barring your dispensationalist commitment to anti-figurative interpretation (the dispensationalist hijacking of the Reformers’ “literal interpretation”), surely you realize how absurd that argument is.

      But on one point you are right: words do mean things–they convey meaning within the bounds of the type of genre we’re talking about. In this case, we’re talking about a song, which is a poem (even if it is rap). It’s not some sort of unfaithfulness to Scripture by painting a word picture in a song. You know, the Bible actually has two whole books devoted to songs: Psalms and the Song of Solomon. Other books have songs in them. Many of them use imagery that can not possibly be true in a wooden literal sense. Yes, Christian, the Bible does take artistic lisence.

      Then there’s apocolyptic literature. It’s a genre much like modern fantasy. It takes images that symbolize events and ideas in an artistic manner. That’s in the book of Revelation, much of Daniel and Ezekiel and other places throughout the rest of the prophets. There’s also some in various other biblical genres.

      Again, it’s a pretty weak argument to hold a song up to an unrealistic expectation like the one you’re expressing in order to avoid dealing with the biblical doctrine that Christ died for the church (Eph. 5:25), the sheep (John 10:11), his people (Matt. 1:21) and us (Rom. 5:8; 8:32-34); and “all” (2 Cor. 5:14-15) the “world” (1 John 2:2).

  3. The way I see it, His death is for all because His sacrifice is infinite..there’s no more sacrifice that could be offered. It is potential for all, but effectual and intentional for the elect.

    I think all this has to boil down to when do you say that the atonement was applied..at the cross or at the point of conversion. If you can prove that the atonement is applied to sinners at the cross then I’ll concede.

    1. The sacrifice is ultimate in the sense it is the once for all time fulfillment of the Old Testament types which were temporary. It’s comprehensive in that it actually accomplishes the propitiation of the Father on behalf of the one for whom he died, and this propitiation of the Father happens before they believe. But if you’re going to say it’s infinite in the sense that the Son comprehensively propitiated the Father on behalf of every person who ever had or would be born, then absolute universal salvation would be the result. An “infinite” sacrifice in that sense isn’t biblical. I know you’re not a universalist, so all you’ve got left is infinite potentiality, which is the very thing that “limits the power” (as 5-pointers charge) of the atonement to actually save anyone without the human’s completing the work by receiving it. To a Calvinist, infinite potentiality sounds like a whole lot of nothing.

      When you ask for proof that the atonement was “applied to sinners at the cross” do you mean in the sense that they’re born saved? Because, theologically, the language of “applying the benefits of the atonement” is a reference to the Spirit’s effectual calling. Are you asking if the Spirit effectually calls people before they’re born? I think you may need to rephrase that question.

      The Scripture that convinced me of the relationship between the Savior’s death and its effect on those for whom he died is 2 Cor. 5:14-15. Simply put, all for whom Christ died wind up dying to sin, that they might live for him. We both know everyone doesn’t die to sin, so according to this verse, he didn’t die for their sakes. Here’s the effectuality you’re lookin for of Christ’s propitiation of the Father on behalf of those for whom he died.

  4. Not to move in on your turf here John but I would reply to this:

    “….I think all this has to boil down to when do you say that the atonement was applied..at the cross or at the point of conversion. If you can prove that the atonement is applied to sinners at the cross then I’ll concede….”

    William, I am curious about your understanding of this:

    Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
    Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
    Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
    Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

    Could it be that it really is as Paul writes it above instead of “when” He was bruised and when I was converted?

    I would be interested in reading what you have to say about Ephesians 1 in light of your assertion?

    John,

    genre! yeah man!

    Here is what I am looking for, but the sound of music and rythym does cloud the effect upon the listening ear for some:::>
    Pro 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits.

    At first I was not particularly attracted to the music and rythym style until I started tracking what I was “hearing” with what I was “reading”.

    It’s in the power of the tongue, baby, the power is in the tongue!

    I guess I too add my thanks to Shai!

    1. You’re welcome to respond to anyone on any topic on my blog. As you see, there’s no list of rules in my sidebar.

  5. OK, only the ELECT are going to heaven.. This has been determined by predestination. If you are the ELECT then Jesus died specifically for you. Everyone else gets to go to Hades. Why try to get people in the church then? If they aren’t part of the ELECT then they lose anyway. It seems to me that this notion of the ELECT is just a sort of self comfort for someone arrogant enough to claim heaven for themselves and to exclude everyone else (if you are not in our club then you are doomed). Sounds like a load of hubris to me. Claiming that you are the ELECT is claiming to know the unknowable and unprovable.

    1. The Reformed do not claim to know who truly is elect and who isn’t. We see teaching in the Bible regarding election, so we deal with it. We don’t deny it, because it is clearly contained in the Scriptures. We believe it’s wrong to claim to know who is and who is not elect, short of accepting as genuine believers those who demonstrate a credible profession of faith in Christ. These we will consider to be elect, but only God himself truly knows for sure.

      It is possible that in the future, they could repudiate their faith in Christ and never repent and return to faith in Christ. If they die in this unrepentant condition, then we can safely assume that they were reprobate (not elect), but again, we readily admit that we don’t know God’s eternal decrees for they are not revealed to us. What is revealed to us is that we are to preach the gospel freely to everyone so that those who are elect may receive Christ and be saved. This is God’s chosen means to bring salvation to his elect, through the agency of Christians proclaiming to everyone without distinction the death and resurrection of Christ for sinners.

      The kinds of derogatory remarks you make about the arrogance of the Reformed are clearly not based on a working knowledge of what the Reformed teach about election, but on emotionally charged assumptions. You might try picking up a copy of R. C. Sproul’s “Chosen By God” at your local Christian Bookstore or you can order a copy of it at http://www.ligonier.org. It may help you have a more informed grasp of Reformed teaching on election and predestination.

  6. It is a great thing to deal with theol. points. BUT you called this music and on that I will have to disagree!

    1. I just said that for the irony of it. Naturally, you’re the expert on music. Thanks for the concern for precision.

  7. Brandon M. Fickle | Reply

    I dig it!

  8. I enjoy Shai Linne, he has some great music. You should check out his CD Killing Sin.

    1. Does Linne have other songs that proclaim the doctrines of grace like this one?

  9. 1 Timothy 2
    1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

    2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

    3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

    4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    Is it possible this says God’s desire was for all to be saved,that His will was for way to be made for all, knowing that not all would recieve it?

    John 1:12 (New King James Version)
    12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

    This does not say to whom he gave the right recieved, it says to those who recieved he gave the right.
    How exactly do we diminish the absolute soverignty of God by saying we admit he created us,that everything is His,that we are sinners in need of a savior etc…. but also admit that some love themselves more than Him and choose to deny His ultimate love for them because it would compell them to abandon their ways?

    John 14:21 (New King James Version)
    21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

    John 14:23 (New King James Version)
    23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

    Luke 10: 25-28
    25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
    26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
    27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’[h] and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”[i]
    28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

    Do these preceeding verses not put a qualifier of our willingness to accept the love of Christ (his sacrifice) on eternal destiny? If we refuse and suffer the fire of hell does it destroy His soverignty or sacrifice? No, because HE perscribed the punishment was death and HE will see that justice is served. This refusal is our acceptance of our rebellion and our punishment told to us from the beginning. God still sits on the throne it is our failure to be loved not His failure to love.

    Gen. 2: 15-17
    15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

    1. It is God’s desire for all to be saved, making a free offer of the gospel to everyone indiscriminately, while knowing that only the elect will come. When God issues a command, like “believe the gospel,” God’s expressing his desire that this is what ought to happen. This does not, however, contradict his eternal decree, by which he made the sovereign determination of what actually would happen.

      However, there is an additional layer of meaning in this passage. Paul is likely combating exclusivism among Jewish false teachers. These teachers were probably excluding the Gentiles. When Paul emphasizes “all” in 1 Timothy 2:4 and 6, it means the same thing Paul writes in Romans 9:24–“even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles.”

      Therefore, God, having made his sovereign choice of the elect, determining who’d actually be saved, calls on all to repent and believe, Jew and Gentile alike, communicating his “desire,” what they ought to do, although the sin by which the reprobate are bound precludes their compliance to the gospel call.

      I’ll deal with the other passages later as I have time.

      1. “It is God’s desire for all to be saved”

        Really!?!

        Just how much time do you spend one on one with God’s Word?

    2. You wrote:

      “John 1:12 (New King James Version)
      12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

      “This does not say to whom he gave the right recieved, it says to those who recieved he gave the right. How exactly do we diminish the absolute soverignty of God by saying we admit he created us, that everything is His, that we are sinners in need of a savior etc…. but also admit that some love themselves more than Him and choose to deny His ultimate love for them because it would compell them to abandon their ways?”

      Verse twelve is incomplete without the rest of the sentence, which continues into verse thirteen: “…who w were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” In this verse, the emphasis is on regeneration according to the sovereign will of God. We agree that reception of Christ is by faith; we also agree that, according to Ephesians 2:8, 9, that it is a gift from God, lest we boast that we did it by our self, right?

      This shifts the primary emphasis from the man to God. Man can’t receive Christ until the Father grants (John 6:65) faith to believe him with. The fact is that this passage in John’s gospel introduces the theme of regeneration which is expanded on in chapter three. In this conversation, Jesus explains to Nicodemus that no one can see (3:3), or enter (3:5) the kingdom of God unless he has first been born from above by the Spirit (3:3,5). Comparing Scripture with Scripture will wind up reversing the order to which you appeal by isolating John 1:12.

      Calvinists in no way deny that “some love themselves more than Him and choose to deny His ultimate love for them because it would compell them to abandon their ways.” Many are called, few are chosen. Many (elect and reprobate) receive the free offer of the gospel, but only the elect receive it (“few are chosen.”) when they are born of God, not the will of the flesh nor of the will of man (John 1:13).

    3. As for your final point, drawn from the several passages you cite, I would simply say that the Lord Jesus, since he is in these passages speaking as a man to men, and not getting into the technicalities of the eternal decree behind everything (this time), he’s just putting it in terms of how these things appear from a limited human’s perspective. We can’t see the prior spiritual work that takes place, preparing us to take the believing and obedient actions we take, so from our perspective it seems that God is responding to man, while the fact remains that the man’s actions, when seen in the light of the rest of Scripture, were originally granted to him by God.

  10. Capt.,
    Absurd? Since you obviously don’t know my position on limited atonement (“Barring your dispensationalist commitment to anti-figurative interpretation”), that’s a little harsh, don’t you think.
    I guess I will stop worrying about all those songs in the hymnal we use at the Church I attend which don’t fit a “correct” doctrinal stance. After all, they’re just songs, right? How could anyone get their doctrine mixed up by “just a song.”

    Christian

    1. I’m not sure if it’s too harsh or not. The whole Bible isn’t intended to be interpreted in a wooden literal sense. “Literal interpretation” is bigger than that. The word “literal” in hermeneutics comes from the Latin phrase, sensus literalis, which means “the sense of the words,” and was originially intended to convey the meaning that the words mean what the authors intended for them to mean. It’s more of an “original intent” thing, than an “as wooden literal as possible with the rare exception of blatantly obvious figures of speech.” In my (sometimes less than) humble opinion, this damage to the proper understanding of “literal interpretation” was inflicted by the dispensational emphasis on hermeneutics.

      If I don’t know your position on limited atonement, feel free to elaborate. That’s what this post was intended for. What little I do know, or assume, is that in some way, both the Arminian and Calvinist interpretations are true in a manner that seems contradictory to man but because God’s thoughts are higher than our thoughts, the seeming contradictions are all resolved up their higher than we’re able to grasp. How am I doing so far?

    2. As for how to handle songs with BAD theology in them, I say you shouldn’t stop worrying about them. But good songs (like Shai Linne’s) which present GOOD theology should be searched for. The fact remains, we all have to wade through a lot of garbage before we find a ripe banana that hasn’t spoiled yet. The problem is in getting the dumpster divers to agree on what’s ripe and what’s spoiled.

  11. John, you wrote in response to Swordman:

    “….It is God’s desire for all to be saved, making a free offer of the gospel to everyone indiscriminately, while knowing that only the elect will come. When God issues a command, like “believe the gospel,” God’s expressing his desire that this is what ought to happen. This does not, however, contradict his eternal decree, by which he made the sovereign determination of what actually would happen….”

    I would like to expand on that a bit.

    Jesus said this:

    Mat 15:12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”
    Mat 15:13 He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up.
    Mat 15:14 Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

    Jesus is indicating that not every “plant” alive in this present heavens and earth is planted by God. He is saying that some plants are planted by the devil.

    When speaking about “receiving the Holy Ghost” Jesus said this:

    Joh 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
    Joh 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
    Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
    Joh 16:10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer;
    Joh 16:11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
    Joh 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
    Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
    Joh 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
    Joh 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
    Joh 16:16 “A little while, and you will see me no longer; and again a little while, and you will see me.”

    What I want to focus on in those verses is that portion about what is going on when the Holy Ghost comes to one who will not “be convicted”.

    Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;

    God has declared all unrighteous before Him.

    When a person is charged with a crime they are brought before the court and they have an opportunity to enter a “plea” of guilty as charged or a plea of not guilty.

    When the Holy Ghost comes and charges you as a sinner and guilty as charged, you do not have a right to enter a plea of guilt or innocence. You are flat plainly “guilty” as charged.

    Now what is the difference between the “plants”. The one easily admits guilt and receives “mercy”. The other protests wanting to be known as innocent and righteous before the One charging them with guilt!

    I was dead in trespasses and sins. In fact I was born a sinner and I come from a long line of sinners! 🙂

    When the Law of Righteousness came alive in me, I died and now I live in Christ Who has become my Righteousness before God, as innocent before Him as though I had not ever sinned or was born a sinner. Why? Because I am “born again”.

    The one who protests their innocence before the One charging them as guilty will go on to be convicted of their sins and will have to then serve a just and righteous sentence for their guilt.

    Those who are “planted” by God, receive the charge as Truth about them and by the Law of Righteousness that is now alive in them know they are guilty and so claim their guilt! We receive God’s mercy.

    Those who are “not planted” by God, receive not the charge as Truth about them and by the Law of Righteousness do not know they are guilty and do not claim their guilt! They do not receive God’s mercy! They have been blinded by the god of this world.

    2Co 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    2Co 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
    2Co 1:4 who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

    Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
    Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
    Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
    Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

    1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
    1Pe 1:5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    1. Tell me if I’m following you correctly. It sounds like you’re saying something similar to what Jesus said to some Jews in John 8:39-47 . . .

      39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.”

      Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.”

      They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.”

      42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.

      “44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.

      “46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

      So, what you’re expanding on is the last part of my quote about his desire not contradicting his eternal decree?

  12. exactly.

    He said it another way here too:

    Mat 12:31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
    Mat 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
    Mat 12:33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit.
    Mat 12:34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
    Mat 12:35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.
    Mat 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,
    Mat 12:37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

    Now, also here too:

    Mat 11:20 Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent.
    Mat 11:21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
    Mat 11:22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you.
    Mat 11:23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
    Mat 11:24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”
    Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
    Mat 11:26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

    Having a bent towards Martin Luther and John Calvin, when I read these things I immediately go to the “Law” “Gospel” distinctives.

    Ask yourself how things will be more “tolerable on the day of judgment” for those whose works are done in Sodom and Gomorrah?

    The laws of nature and the Mosiac Laws applied during those days. Even though in the days of Abraham God sent judgment to Sodom after rescuing Lot and his two daughters there is a “greater” than them here now. His Name is Jesus.

    Also remember when Jesus came He was constantly in a struggle with the Talmud and the Talmudic Jews, not the Torah.

  13. you wrote:

    Therefore, God, having made his sovereign choice of the elect, determining who’d actually be saved, calls on all to repent and believe, Jew and Gentile alike, communicating his “desire,” what they ought to do, although the sin by which the reprobate are bound precludes their compliance to the gospel call.

    Does this say that God would decree or enact a course directly contradictory to His desire? Would this then make Him the author of duallity?

    My quandry is this, your statement SEEMS to be that God introduced sin to the world by causing persons to be reprobate with no hope of redemption and in perpetual bondage to sin and thus making Him to be the author of sin thereby disqualifing Him as a viable redeemer. This cannot be as God clearly says Jesus Christ is that redeemer and of Himself.

    Christ in Our Place

    6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
    Death in Adam, Life in Christ

    12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
    18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
    20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    In the context of your statement you SEEMINGLY say that if by Adam sin entered the world it was because Adam was created reprobate and as we know God walked with Adam before the fall and sin and God cannot occupy the same space , how then can we balance your SEEMING assertion?

    1. I would say that there is a kind of duality in the various wills of God distinguished in Scripture. There are things that are secret that belong to the Lord, his decretive will , and there are things that are revealed for the purpose of our obeying his preceptive will (Deut. 29:29). Duality, perhaps, not to be confused with some form of dual-ISM. Man himself is a duality: a material part (body), and an immaterial part (soul/spirit) (yes, I’m a dichotomist, not a trichotomist). There’s nothing inherently wrong with duality as there is something wrong with dualism. Keep in mind that God’s not human. When non-Calvinists project this dual decretive/preceptive will of God onto a person bound by human constraints, it sounds unfair, or suspicious somehow. If it were the sort of thing a fallen, fallible and finite human were capable of, there would be something diabolical about it. But God is not a human, though he is a person. He is allowed to be jealous and envious, when in us it’s the work of the flesh (Gal. 5); he’s allowd to take revenge, while forbidding it of us, why can’t he ordain what’s actually going to happen without revealing this to us (“the secret things” of Deut. 29:29), and then tell us what he expects of us and hold us accountable for not doing it? This sounds bigger than a human can do. It sounds like God to me.

      When it comes to the popular charge that these Calvinistic teachings make God the author of sin, the Scriptures reveal the guardrails for our thinking on this, so that we don’t fall off into human logical conclusions that happen to be erroneous in this case. Yes, he ordains sin in his fallen creatures, but he does it in such a way that he is not the author or cause of sin, for James writes that he tempts no one to do evil (James 1:13-14), and he does not violate man’s will, somehow making people sin against their will, as if it was possible for unredeemed people to sin against their will. They do it because they want to do it, and it turns out to be one cog in God’s eternal purpose which serves to work for his glory and the good of his people (Romans 8:28).

      Regarding Adam, I do not believe, and Calvinism does not teach that Adam was reprobate. He was created in “original righteousness” from which he fell into sin, violating the covenant of works God instituted with him, in which Adam represented all of his posterity (that’s you and me and all unbelievers). His guilt is imputed to all his children, that’s what we call “original sin.” But we also inherit the tendency to commit actual sins. Righteous Adam represented us, but fell and failed; Christ represents those the Father gave to him and he succeeded. Because of Christ, the Second Adam’s faithfulness to the covenant of works, his covenantal righteousness is imputed to the elect as they come to believe (justification), and the ability to actually obey is worked into us by the Holy Spirit progressively throughout our lives (sanctification) until he returns and we are raised incorruptible to sin no more in the body (glorification). That’s Calvinism. That’s Bible.

      By the way, what you’re basically concluding from the words of mine you quoted, you are basically making the same accusation of those Paul dealt with rhetorically in Romans 9:19-21, which reads, “You will say to me then, ‘Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?’ But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?”

      Take note of Paul’s answer: if you think it’s unfair for God to unconditionally choose his elect, and leave the rest reprobate, to be punished for their own sins without an egalitarian equal opportunity to stake a claim in Christ’s redemption, you are being presumptuous to talk back to God in such a way.

      In other words, human logic says it’s unfair, but biblical revelation says it’s God’s mercy to redeem his elect and perfectly fair to mete out his wrath on the reprobate whose sin he didn’t force them to commit, simply ordained it in accordance with his eternal purpose.

  14. Pardon my incomplete submission those refs were from Romans 5.
    I do not intend to raise ire here with my inquiry, but seek to fully understand your position on these things. I am unfortunately some times blunt in my non verbal communication (electronic ) due to the limitations of time and space on a blog site,and in wanting to get directly to my point of question. Please no-one take offense. I have had these discussions with others and it degraded into a flaming of me by multiple respondents. I was basically dismissed as reprobate as you put it,and this I do not believe to be true,and certainly not the place of any but God to judge.

    1. In this case, I say you’re conducting yourself quite commendably. Comment on!

  15. you wrote:

    But God is not a human, though he is a person. He is allowed to be jealous and envious, when in us it’s the work of the flesh (Gal. 5); he’s allowd to take revenge, while forbidding it of us, why can’t he ordain what’s actually going to happen without revealing this to us (”the secret things” of Deut. 29:29), and then tell us what he expects of us and hold us accountable for not doing it? This sounds bigger than a human can do. It sounds like God to me.

    In this context ,is He holding accountable those who by your definition are incapable of realizing their accountability?or they exsist solely to establish our accountability?

    you wrote:
    Regarding Adam,
    He was created in “original righteousness” from which he fell into sin, violating the covenant of works God instituted with him.

    So in an original state of righteousness he held the propensity for sin??
    This to some extent leaves me with a quandry because this would seem in Adam’s case to be duallity that does not seem to balance with “original righteousness”
    In other words it leads me part way back to God inserting a flaw but in yet he said:

    Gen 1:31
    Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    Main Entry: righ·teous
    Pronunciation: \ˈrī-chəs\
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: alteration of earlier rightuous, alteration of Middle English rightwise, rightwos, from Old English rihtwīs, from riht, noun, right + wīs wise
    Date: 1530
    1: acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin

    you wrote:
    he does not violate man’s will

    If you are created reprobate or unelect. to what extent does man’s will apply?

    1. In the first citation, I’m not claiming anyone is incapable of realizing their accountability. I’m saying a sovereign God alone has the right to ordain everything that will come to pass, right down to incorporating human sin (which he didn’t work into them, they commit it out of their own hearts) in his eternal purpose. I pointed out that this ordination of all things is not revealed in the same way his Law and his Word are revealed (his preceptive will). The only thing I’m saying people don’t realize is exactly what God has ordained will actually come to pass. I think you may have misunderstood my point.

      Yes, in a state of original righteousness, Adam possessed the capacity to fall from his righteousness. God didn’t create people immutable, unchangable. He created Adam and Eve righteous (“very good”) yet, according to the Preacher of Ecclesiastes, “See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes” (Ecc. 7:29). On the same token, Satan himself was also created good, and he fell from his goodness, as well. God didn’t create them flawed, Adam and Satan inserted the flaw themselves, yet still within the realm of God’s providential outworking of his eternal purpose.

      Finally, God does not force people to sin against their will. Being born in original sin, that’s exactly what they want to do. And God uses it for his glory and the good of the elect. Consider these passages:

      “this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men” (Acts 2:23).

      “But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands” (Matt. 17:12).

      “for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place” (Acts 4:27-28).

      “Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin” (John 19:11).

      “The lot is cast into the lap,
      but its every decision is from the Lord” (Prov. 16:33).

      Each of these verses are cited in support of the statement in the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3 “Of God’s Eternal Decree”, Section 1, which reads, “…nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

      In other words, God uses the sinful actions which originate in the fallen hearts of men as his means (“establishing the contingency of second causes”) to fulfill his eternal decree. Again, God doesn’t actively work this sin into the people, making them do what they would not have ordinarily done anyway, he simply refrains from working in them to will and to do good (Phil. 2:13).

  16. John

    not knowing fully where you are going with all this and what is on you mind and what God has placed in your heart, I want to comment on these words and by so doing, underscore that they are very important words to consider indeed. After them I will explain why:

    “….Yes, in a state of original righteousness, Adam possessed the capacity to fall from his righteousness. God didn’t create people immutable, unchangable. He created Adam and Eve righteous (”very good”) yet, according to the Preacher of Ecclesiastes, “See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes” (Ecc. 7:29). …”

    This to me, “original righteousness”, is another ‘reflectiion’ of what Lucifer “had” before he too fell and became an unrighteous creature and is directly responsible for that bottomless pit of darkness.

    Adam, it is my opinion, was created “originally righteous” for a reason and a purpose. It is a purpose not discussed much and it takes a lot of study and reading to understand that purpose from the “entire” Scripture, the Bible. I believe it is to clearly define, “originally righteous”, “Eternally Righteous” and eternally unrighteous.

    Pro 4:7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom, and whatever you get, get insight.

    What’s the purpose? To help us see that Lucifer, now fallen, known to us as Satan, the chief devil, the dragon of old, was created “originally righteous”, “Lucifer”. Every creature God creates is originally righteous.

    Why do I say that?

    Because! That’s why! 🙂

    We learn from Scripture that God is ‘Light’ and there is no darkness in Him, in Them, “at all”, ever. Yet we read in Chapter 1 of Genesis and verse 2 that the earth was formless and void and “darkness” was over the surface of the deep and the Spirit of God was over the surface of the waters. Where does “darkness” come from?

    As you search out that Hebrew or Aramiac word “darkness” it leaves you with one understanding, that is, darkness in this context is the “fruit” of a prior something. In otherwards, darkness is a “fruit”. It “points” to something that produced it.

    What happened when Adam partook of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? His “light” that original righteousness, was snuffed out.

    What was the purpose of Jesus Christ coming to the world and to take on face to face our most deadly of enemies?

    Jesus came to do three things in my view in this context of defining darkness. One, to destroy the devil. Two, to destroy the “works of the devil”. And three, to establish in our minds two “righteousnesses” so that we will give up on ourselves in trying to “get better”, or I will do it better next time, or it was only a minor mistake, yada yada da. And these two are, one, that original righteousness was Adam’s authority, a created being created “Righteous”; and two, to establish for us that His “Eternal” Nature is Eternally “Righteous” even while living among men born of a woman.

    What’s the significance of that that Jesus would come to establish these two righteousnesses?

    Well, Adam, as a creature, was originally righteous. The Law of Righteousness, Eternal Righteousness, applies in the creation and in him even now. It was fine, the whole creation, the created heavens and earth, until he ate of the fruit of darkness. The promise made to them afterwards is that in that “Seed” that is coming, our lost position will “not” be reestablished, “but”, a better position will come about through this “Seed” in us in our personal lifetimes. It is this “better” position that is what it is all about.

    God, later on, to develop this even more made this claim of Truth to Abram, the Hebrew, a practicing pagan at that time:

    Gen 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

    What is this better position then? I would think being restored to original righteousness would be a sufficient position to gain to conduct Godly business on earth?

    Paul gives us some understanding of it when we read these things about it:

    Eph 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles–
    Eph 3:2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you,
    Eph 3:3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.
    Eph 3:4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,
    Eph 3:5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
    Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

    Do you see that here now in time and eternity, a man, by an anointing, [the very same anointing we are suppose to have in Christ], writes about a mystery, “the mystery of Christ”?

    Later on at verses 10 and 11 Paul defines the outworkings of this Mystery, as Christ’s Body, the Holy Christian Church:::>

    Eph 3:10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
    Eph 3:11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,.

    He says that now he also understands the “mystery” and this “mystery” is The Eternal Purpose assigned to Christ’s Body, the Holy Christian Church. The Church is this Eternal Righteousness that I speak about above, that is, “We” the “Church”, those known about beforehand in God before the foundation of the world was laid, according to that that you quoted already above John,: “this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men” (Acts 2:23). The Eternal Purpose is found in the Church and this purpose is equally definately planned by the foreknowledge of God too.

    What is this that is found then? Is it that the “Church” has been “healed” and now lives as an originally righteous one as Adam before he fell? No. Adam’s life, our dirt, our dust, our flesh in this life is dust and will go back to dust and ashes to ashes, pure and simple. There is nothing redeemable that God wants to redeem and employ with our flesh.

    What is God after then? He is only after “dead” people. He is not into fixing us up and making us better sons of the originally righteous Adam! No.

    What is God after? He is after those for Whom He created for Himself before the foundations of the world, to be a place “to dwell in” eternally. He can “dwell” in the Church!

    Paul, in developing this mystery earlier in Chapter 2 of Ephesians uses a Greek Word to describe the “change” that one, who was of the world, under the leading of the god of this world and its wisdom, goes through to become a member of the Holy Christian Church now full of the Wisdom of God Who dwells in it.

    It is nothing we do. That is so hard for some to grasp.

    Let me ask a question first before citing the verse in Ephesians Chapter 2 and publish the word in Greek with the English definitions.

    What does a dead person do to move from their dead place to a morgue or a mortuary or to a grave site? Nothing. Dead people do nothing. Why? Ah, they are dead, that’s why!

    Ok, the verse and oh, by the way, Paul is the only writer of the Bible to use this word and he uses it in Colossians also:

    Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ–by grace you have been saved–

    The Greek Word:

    συζωοποιέω
    suzōopoieō
    sood-zo-op-oy-eh’-o
    From G4862 and G2227; to reanimate conjointly with (figuratively): – quicken together with.

    What then is so significant about this “parallel” between the original righteousness of Lucifer and the original righteousness of Adam?

    Well, seeing Jesus came into this world to “destroy” the devil and his works, He leaves nothing redeemable of him and his to redeem. There is nothing of the old Adam that He redeems, too.

    With man, the sons of Adam, men, women and children, though, only “those” God has planted in this world leave to Heaven; [we are still deadly in our Adamic nature even though Godly in our Divine Nature], because God has made us “alive with Christ” and He has, by His Own Hand, conjoined us and reanimated us to be “One” with Christ’s Eternal Nature which is and always has been and will always be an Eternal Righteous Nature forever and the change is to become, by the Spirit of Grace, as Eternally Righteous and Holy and Pure as Christ, the Spirit of God and Our Heavenly Father.

    2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

    Adam started out as originally righteous. After the fall, he and Eve and all born of her, in their generation, are originally unrighteous their entire lifetime on earth and in this world, “spirit”, “soul” and “body”, except for One.

    Jesus says this about that:

    Mat 15:12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”
    Mat 15:13 He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up.
    Mat 15:14 Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

    When I was “born again”, my spirit, soul and body were conjoined to Christ’s and now we are One. Why? Not because I have done something to gain Eternal Righteousness, but because God has Called and Elected me to His Eternal Righteousness in His Glory.

    1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1Th 5:24 He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.

    Now, I too, along with the multitudes of the Elect, can cry “Come”:::>

    Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

    1. Uhh…I don’t have the attention span for this comment.

  17. you (John) wrote:

    He created Adam and Eve righteous (”very good”) yet, according to the Preacher of Ecclesiastes, “See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes” (Ecc. 7:29).

    So they(Adam and Eve) were created able to choose between what they were given and told by God and the assertion of the serpent? If so, why?

    1. I’m sorry. Can you rephrase your question. What you’re asking isn’t clear.

  18. Did God make them able to make a choice to obey or disobey?

    1. Yes, God created Adam and Eve in his image, which in part means they reflected his righteousness. Thus, they were made “upright” according to Ecclesiastes 7:29a. As the second portion of the verse, however, goes on to point out, “they have sought out many schemes.” Adam and Eve were the only people who ever had the kind of absolute free will that most people try to argue for themselves. They were inherently righteous and had the ability to choose to do good and the ability to choose to do evil.

      As the covenantal representative head of the entire human race (Romans 5:12-21), the choice which Adam would make with regard to God’s command not to eat the fruit, would forever confirm his posterity, those he represented, in the results of his free choice. In other words, we were born bound to sin and unable to freely choose to obey God’s Law by Adam’s free choice to bind himself to sin. Our bondage to disobedience in our unregenerate state is perhaps most clearly and simply stated in Romans 8:7, which reads, “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.” As fallen and unregenerate children of Adam, we do not submit to God’s Law because we cannot submit to God’s Law.

      The image of God in us has been marred in the Fall, yet in Christ, it is renewed. Look at Ephesians 4:17-24. Paul calls the Ephesians to put off the old man which is their unregenerate state of alienation from the life of God and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to “be renewed in the spirit of your minds” (v. 23) and to thus put on the new self. Paul describes this new self as “created in the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness” (v. 24). In short, the renewal of the image of God’s true righteousness and holiness, which was lost in Adam’s Fall, takes place in Christ. In Christ we are freed to obey God’s Law, yet, as one preacher I know puts it, although sin no longer reigns it yet remains. Only in Christ is our will freed to obey or disobey as non-Calvinists so often seem to claim for the unregenerate.

  19. For me John, after reading your words:

    “….In Christ we are freed to obey God’s Law, yet, as one preacher I know puts it, although sin no longer reigns it yet remains. Only in Christ is our will freed to obey or disobey as non-Calvinists so often seem to claim for the unregenerate….”

    I see and accept these words Peter wrote:

    ESV
    1Pe 1:5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    KJV
    1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    I did not believe at one time that I needed “protection” after salvation, thinking ignorantly that now that I was saved, washed, sanctified and justified, I could maintain His Holiness in my life and in fact it was my duty as a Christian “to do so”!

    Now I know better and accept that I cannot “keep” or “guard” myself for that Salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. I need My Savior just as much now as the day He died for me, was buried and rose again!

    Now, I receive Grace, Mercy and Peace inspite of myself, daily!

    As one old Scottish man said to two Pastors walking by him one sunny morning after he was asked, “how you doing this fine sunny morn”? The old man simply replied, “in Him, kept”, so I say the same thing, “in Him, I too, am kept”!

  20. James,

    Care to make a case, or are you simply interested in making snide comments? I mean it in the sense that it is what God’s preceptive will declares that all ought to come, though none can without his monergistic grace.

    So, how would you correct this conclusion?

  21. John you wrote:

    As the covenantal representative head of the entire human race (Romans 5:12-21), the choice which Adam would make with regard to God’s command not to eat the fruit, would forever confirm his posterity, those he represented, in the results of his free choice. In other words, we were born bound to sin and unable to freely choose to obey God’s Law by Adam’s free choice to bind himself to sin. Our bondage to disobedience in our unregenerate state is perhaps most clearly and simply stated in Romans 8:7, which reads, “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.” As fallen and unregenerate children of Adam, we do not submit to God’s Law because we cannot submit to God’s Law.

    The image of God in us has been marred in the Fall, yet in Christ, it is renewed. Look at Ephesians 4:17-24. Paul calls the Ephesians to put off the old man which is their unregenerate state of alienation from the life of God and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to “be renewed in the spirit of your minds” (v. 23) and to thus put on the new self. Paul describes this new self as “created in the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness” (v. 24). In short, the renewal of the image of God’s true righteousness and holiness, which was lost in Adam’s Fall, takes place in Christ. In Christ we are freed to obey God’s Law, yet, as one preacher I know puts it, although sin no longer reigns it yet remains. Only in Christ is our will freed to obey or disobey as non-Calvinists so often seem to claim for the unregenerate.

    These I want look at in the context of your comments above:

    Romans 3:19 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
    19 Now we know that whatever the law says (A) speaks to those who are subject to the law, (B) [a] so that every mouth may be shut and the whole world may become subject to God’s judgment. (C) [b]

    Romans 3:20 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
    20 For no flesh will be justified [a] in His sight by the works of the law, (A) for through the law [comes] the knowledge of sin. (B)

    Romans 3:21-26 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

    God’s Righteousness through Faith
    21 But now, apart from the law, God’s righteousness has been revealed (A) —attested by the Law and the Prophets (B) [a] 22 —that is, God’s righteousness through faith (AJ) in Jesus Christ, (AK) [k] to all who believe, (AL) since there is no distinction. (AM) 23 For all have sinned (AN) and fall short of the [l] glory of God. 24 They are justified freely by His grace (AO) through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. (AP) 25 God presented Him as a propitiation (AQ) [m] through faith in His blood, (AR) to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God (AS) passed over the sins previously committed. (AT) 26 He presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous [n] the one who has faith in Jesus.

    Ok, we agree that through the Law is the power of conviction found, correct?
    and we agree that Jesus Christ is the only redemption for the sin that is shown to us by the power of the Law.
    So then, hearing and understanding the conviction of the Law is in your stance, the ability given to the Elect but not to the un-elect ?

    Psalm 33:14-15 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
    14 He gazes on all the inhabitants of the earth
    from His dwelling place. (A)

    15 He alone crafts their hearts;
    He considers all their works. (B)

    Luke 8 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
    4 As a large crowd was gathering, and people were flocking to Him from every town, He said in a parable: (E) 5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. As he was sowing, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds of the sky ate it up. 6 Other seed fell on the rock; when it sprang up, it withered, since it lacked moisture. 7 Other seed fell among thorns; the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. 8 Still other seed fell on good ground; when it sprang up, it produced a crop: 100 times [what was sown].” (F) As He said this, He called out, “Anyone who has ears to hear should listen!” (G)

    Why Jesus Used Parables
    9 Then His disciples asked Him, “What does this parable mean?” (H) 10 So He said, “The secrets [a] of the kingdom of God have been given for you (I) to know, but to the rest it is in parables, so that
    Looking they may not see,

    and hearing they may not understand. (J) (K)

    The Parable of the Sower Explained
    11 “This is the meaning of the parable: (L) [b] The seed is the word of God. (M) 12 The seeds along the path are those who have heard. Then the Devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the seeds on the rock are those who, when they hear, welcome the word with joy. Having no root, these believe for a while and depart in a time of testing. (N) 14 As for the seed that fell among thorns, these are the ones who, when they have heard, go on their way and are choked with worries, riches, and pleasures of life, (O) and produce no mature fruit. 15 But the seed in the good ground—these are the ones who, [c] having heard the word with an honest and good heart, hold on to it and by enduring, (P) bear fruit.

    In this passage above I find two things(but not exclusively two things!) I find Jesus saying it is the Devil who steals the word from their hearts not that God SEALED the word from their hearts and and I do find in this support for not by works which is these:
    10 So He said, “The secrets [a] of the kingdom of God have been given for you (I) to know, but to the rest it is in parables, so that
    Looking they may not see,

    and hearing they may not understand. (J) (K)

    You and I agree that our salvation is through grace and faith not of ourselves, we agree that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God, we agree that God judges the matter of the heart. we agree that Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation, we agree that the purpose of the Law is the conviction of sin and much more, so let us look at from here strictly how these can be and are. Yet can we accomplish such a task?

    Isaiah 55:8 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
    8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
    and your ways are not My ways.”
    [This is] the LORD’s declaration.

    Psalm 94:11 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
    11 The LORD knows man’s thoughts;
    they are meaningless. (A) [a]

    1. Yes, God by his grace only brings his elect to true conviction of sin which leads to repentance. Although reprobate souls (those who never genuinely repent and savingly believe) may feel sorrow for their sins, and realize that God’s Law condemns them, theirs is not the godly sorrow that leads to repentance.

  22. michael submitted some time back:

    Mat 12:31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
    Mat 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

    Is this blasphemy commited by the one who refuses the power of the Spirit to reveal the power of the Law to conviction? That there is no salvation, correct?

    1. I would agree the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit does apply to those who refuse to repent and trust Christ for salvation. But I would not put it that they “refuse the power of the Spirit to reveal the power of the Law to conviction.” This sounds like Arminian “resistable grace.” If a man rejects the gospel, he has only received the outward call from the preacher, but not the inward, effectual call of the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 1:9; Romans 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:2). The call of the Spirit is effectual, only the elect receive this call, and they do not resist it.

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